[00:00:00] Bryan Pham: Hey, everyone! Welcome to our episode of the Asian Hustle Network podcast. Today, we have a very special guest. He is one of my good friends, Gordon Tsui. Gordon is an entrepreneur and an investor located in Los Angeles. Gordon, welcome to the podcast. 

[00:00:15] Gordon Tsui: Nice! Hey, Brian, thanks for having me. 

[00:00:17] Bryan Pham: Of course.

[00:00:18] Bryan Pham: We’re so blessed. I think this is like Gordon’s first podcast or something. 

[00:00:22] Gordon Tsui: It is, don’t tell them.

[00:00:24] Bryan Pham: We love popping those podcast cherries. 

[00:00:25] Gordon Tsui: You got mine. 

[00:00:26] Bryan Pham: All right, man, tell us about yourself. Tell us about your upbringing, who you are, and what you do currently.

[00:00:31] Gordon Tsui: Yeah, for sure. Everyone, my name is Gordon. I was born in Los Angeles. I grew up in Korea and mostly Beijing during my adolescent years. I was there in Beijing from 1998 to 2008 where we saw the crazy boom that doubled GDP. What I do today is, I guess, by day I manage an early-stage venture fund. By night, I work with a syndicate of investors to invest in alternative assets. And that’s pretty much me in a nutshell. 

[00:00:57] Bryan Pham: That’s awesome to hear, dude. Hearing that you’re doing so much about your upbringing, splitting your time between Korea and Beijing. What was that like? And how did you end up in that position? 

[00:01:08] Gordon Tsui: So my dad was always, I think, an entrepreneur his whole life.

[00:01:12] Gordon Tsui: My mother, on the other hand, was in the corporate world. We left LA back in the early nineties during the California economy crash. We went to Korea for a little bit but eventually moved to Beijing. I just think Beijing at that time was such a great market. My mother was there for ex-pat opportunities to work in a corporation.

[00:01:29] Gordon Tsui: Growing up in Beijing during that time, I think I was significantly affected by how I looked at life. Because you saw this like crazy! Like when we went to school there, we had to travel like 40 minutes to go to McDonald’s by like a couple of years, those McDonald’s on every corner. And then, parents work there. You saw their career climb super fast but also go through insane, like unusual regulatory hurdles and everything.

[00:01:54] Bryan Pham: That’s pretty crazy, right? To be in China during that time and see the rapid development of that fast-paced environment. Seeing the Chinese economy essentially blow up as you’re growing up, how did that affect your view on entrepreneurship compared to how things are on the Western side?

[00:02:08] Gordon Tsui: Oh man. Okay. I think the way I viewed startups or being an entrepreneur in China back then, compared to the US, was that the culture was so different. This goes beyond me going up there. I went back and forth a lot after graduating. As a clear example, I always give a lot of friends I do business with a contract that would start a business. Let’s say between you and I, we created a start-up here.

[00:02:28] Gordon Tsui: We have an operating agreement. The contract would get very long and very wordy. An arrangement in China for, let’s say the same deal or something, like a 50 million deal might just be three or four pages, size, 12 sizes, 14 font. And then, just like, here’s my signature and thumbprint.

[00:02:45] Gordon Tsui: So I think that reflects a lot. The way people solve business, there was more relationship-based handshake agreement back then. That led to much denial of the handshake agreements, right? So you saw a lot of similar problems in China where things would fall short because deals weren’t truly legally packaged.

[00:03:05] Gordon Tsui: So I think that just naturally affected the growth of entrepreneurs. 

[00:03:08] Bryan Pham: Oh, wow. That’s interesting to hear too, having deals based upon handshakes. It’s unheard of on the US side. There’s so much structure here, so much regulation. And just a personal question, would you prefer doing business in America versus China? What would you pick, now or on both sides of the spectrum? 

[00:03:25] Gordon Tsui: Yes, I think the US is the framework and set in a place very well. And then, I think entrepreneurship, in general, when it comes to innovation and startups has always just been the strongest in the US. I’m in China today, compared to back then. I think the more significant concerns are like, I guess, the government, or just being able to move in and out of the country, et cetera, which I won’t go into too much. But of course, definitely us.

[00:03:50] Bryan Pham: Yes, I understand. I feel like we go into too much. Our podcast can be censored. I’m just kidding. politics! 

[00:03:57] Bryan Pham: But, yes, I want to dive into your work too. You have your hands on many things on the investment side, right? You have your hands in real estate. You have your hands in startups and everything.

[00:04:05] Bryan Pham: What sparked this interest in your investing? You’re investing in everything. How did you spark this interest, and like, how did you learn on your own? 

[00:04:15] Gordon Tsui: Yes! I guess the immediate thought I had when you asked that question is I’ve always been that guy who is not an expert at anything, right?

[00:04:23] Gordon Tsui: Not good at one specific study, let’s say science in high school or whatnot. And I do think I have a lot of interest in things, so I pick up things faster. I look at things a lot, but I can never become a deep expert in anything. So to be honest, I like to invest in founders, for example, that are one inch wide and 10 miles deep.

[00:04:40] Gordon Tsui: I’m the exact opposite, sparking my interest-wise. I think growing up, I was never really a good student in high school. I was more bratty. I like to hustle. I didn’t like following rules, which in many ways overlapped with my entrepreneurial spirit.

[00:04:54] Gordon Tsui: So I think, as I went to college and started getting my stuff together, I realized that many of the skills I did as a hustler in high school were transferable. And then, that kind of led me in a career, doing startups, doing a founder, having a bunch of failures, then ultimately doing you know, a couple of things and starting investing. Yes, so all the investments I do generally are in the earliest stages of the life cycle. 

[00:05:13] Bryan Pham: Yes, that’s awesome. Let’s hear about Gordon, the high school hustler. What did you hustle back in high school? 

[00:05:18] Bryan Pham: Oh, man. Okay. I just really hope my mom doesn’t see this.

[00:05:21] Gordon Tsui: I’m just kidding. So in high school, what created the hustle was like, I slept in, I skipped. I always missed my first class so I couldn’t take the bus to school. I had to take a cab. I had a girlfriend. My allowance is very little. I guess I have found ways to earn money to pay for this.

[00:05:37] Gordon Tsui: So I had a lousy hobby back when I used to like motorbikes. My father had his own business. He gave me the sidecar. It was like world-war-three, driving it around, which ticked like scraps or created that itch for speed and everything else. China back then was like no regulations and didn’t need an ID.

[00:05:55] Gordon Tsui: But I told my parents I wanted a two-wheeler motorbike, like a sports bike. They didn’t allow it, like 15, right? Which kind of pair would, but I got engaged with a motorbike shop. I had a relationship with them. I could find buyers in the international market because I went to an international school in China, so we had a very American ex-pat community. If I could see them, buyers, I could take whatever mark. So let’s say this motorbike costs a thousand dollars, but to the ex-pat, the dad, or whatever, they’re used to buying this equivalent bike in the US for $5,000. I would sell it for two or 3000 and then make a thousand, $2,000, and then use that to cut down on my lifestyle expenses in high school. 

[00:06:32] Bryan Pham: That’s insane. I can’t remember doing something like that in high school. I don’t think my guts are big enough to deal with 1000-2000. That sounds like a lot of money, right?

[00:06:41] Gordon Tsui: Yes, it felt like an insane amount. I was like, oh my God, I could go to the best restaurant. I was like T F because it was super expensive back then, even in China. 

[00:06:48] Bryan Pham: That’s crazy, dude. I’m glad you always had that hustle mentality, and it’s still reflective of the person you are.

[00:06:54] Bryan Pham: Because you carry it over and continue to evolve, I don’t think you give yourself enough credit. I believe that you’re more of one of the most detailed oriented people that I know. Do every single follow-up you do and every single message you send like properly read?

[00:07:09] Bryan Pham: So I think you should give yourself more credit dude. I can see why you’ve been so successful for so long. 

[00:07:14] Gordon Tsui: Oh, thanks, man. Yes, it’s too kind, but hopefully, a long way to go. 

[00:07:18] Bryan Pham: Of course, and it is always day one. You’re always hustling to get started with something new.

[00:07:23] Gordon Tsui: Yes. Identical to you, man. That’s how I remember so many when we were on the clubhouse days, right? Covid-19 clubhouse days! Asian hustle network, what is this? And then, come along Brian, one of the market’s biggest hustlers. 

[00:07:34] Bryan Pham: Appreciate the kind words, dude. But let’s hear about your first entrepreneurial venture. As you mentioned earlier, you did a few things that failed. What did you do and how did it fail? What have you learned from that experience? 

[00:07:45] Gordon Tsui: Oh, okay. So one of the first ones I did, like a proper startup, was actually in my senior year of college. So I went to college in the states in LA. I invested in a technology called MOF middle organic framework.

[00:07:59] Gordon Tsui: It’s a battery technology that coats lithium-ion. All right, so imagine if a cell phone battery can be coded by this unique MO material that allows it to be charged fast. So this was like 10-15 years ago. The technology should have allowed the iPhone to charge in full and like minutes. Unique technology backed by an inventive prodigy in China.

[00:08:19] Gordon Tsui: It was a US project. So I invested in the founding team in the US. And then after investing, I asked them, hey, while you’re developing this technology and trying to get bought out or like to team up with companies like Samsung and LG, why don’t you license me this battery and let me create a consumer product, right?

[00:08:35] Gordon Tsui: Let me create a battery bank or like, a battery charger and then sell it online. It will be marketing for the technology, but I’ll also get to recruit my investment. We did one of the first crowdfunding campaigns. This is like when Kickstarter. Are you familiar with how Kickstarter just started?

[00:08:48] Gordon Tsui: We launched on Kickstarter. We raised like 50. Our goal is $50,000. We raised in less than three days and raised a hundred thousand dollars. It had all the initial capital to begin manufacturing. I flew back to China. Everything was going great. And then, once we met the manufacturer, we realized three huge issues, like one underlying technology was not stable enough to support fast charging. It did not exist in the market. No one created a charger that could charge that fast. And then, number three, the manufacturer of this battery-like plant was trying to poach our scientist, give him money, and just buy him out. He just tells him, Hey, why don’t you just supply all of our batteries instead and forget this US company fast forward to the end of that trip.

[00:09:27] Gordon Tsui: We still delivered all the products to our customers on Kickstarter and ended up selling on Amazon. But in that period, I learned a few things, definitely work with people you trust but also trust that those people are going to change.

[00:09:39] Gordon Tsui: We trusted a scientist, but here, unfortunately, whatever happened. I also learned due diligence. This is why, I guess, as you were saying earlier, super detailed. I’m super, like a big believer of due diligence. And then lastly, you can avoid it. Don’t do hardware products, but I’m just joking.

[00:09:53] Gordon Tsui: Hardware is excellent, but I don’t like hardware. 

[00:09:55] Bryan Pham: I was about to say something regarding that too. I feel like everything you choose is hard. It’s like high-over-cost hardware, supply issues, and all these things. But my hat’s off to you. As you mentioned earlier, your dad had a motor company or something like that.

[00:10:09] Bryan Pham: That explains a lot. If I were to start a company, it would be something like appliances just because that’s what I’m used to. That’s why my dad started his company to sell devices. The great thing nowadays is starting a cheap and easy company.

[00:10:20] Bryan Pham: It’s just a matter of putting together ideas and doing the work to make something happen. That’s what I want to talk about. What is your transition to becoming an investor? What made you move from an operating to an investor side? And as an investor, how has that been different from being an operator?

[00:10:38] Gordon Tsui: I think one of the personal reasons why I started investing was the VC fund. I was hoping that it could maybe find the opportunities to inspire. Aside from getting returns and everything, it inspired me to find a new idea and project to work on and just be on the low side of the table to see what’s out there.

[00:10:56] Gordon Tsui: When you’re an entrepreneur, you see and focus on yourself and what’s in front of you, just your immediate network. So I wanted to be on the other side. And then, what was the other follow-up question? Sorry. I forgot my bad. 

[00:11:08] Bryan Pham: I just want to see what has been the most significant difference between being an operator and an investor.

[00:11:12] Gordon Tsui: I guess the similarities between an investor and an operator is that, or maybe not investing for myself, but like more of a fan fund manager or syndicate, is that as an entrepreneur, everyone is your boss. Your customers are your boss. Your employees are your boss. You don’t want them to leave. Your investors are your boss.

[00:11:29] Gordon Tsui: I don’t think many VCs or syndicates say this, but I believe in the VC world, everyone’s your boss too. Your LPs are your boss. You got to back them. Hey, invest in my fund. The strong portfolio companies that you invest in are also your boss. Hey, would you like to take my money, please?

[00:11:44] Gordon Tsui: I want to be able to invest in this opportunity. And then also, like the network you build, can you know the founders, the other VCs? Everyone is your boss. You want to share deals. So ultimately I think, it’s very similar in that you always have to push. You’re always not like the idea of how people are painted as bosses on TV.

[00:12:02] Gordon Tsui: The difference on the other hand is I think that as an entrepreneur, it’s a lot harder, to be honest. It’s you, especially as you grow a business and have people work for you. The level of responsibility is very different. Let’s say, just being responsible for capital, you’re responsible for people’s families. You’re responsible for people who like to dedicate their life following you and working with you, etc. I think that would probably be one of the most significant differences. 

[00:12:22] Bryan Pham: That’s crazy. Just seeing both sides of the spectrum and positioning yourself to succeed and help definitely. It’s fantastic to hear that. I’m curious too; as you mentioned earlier, it’s a lot harder to be an entrepreneur and investor. Now, how have you been able to provide value to your portfolio companies that you invest into? 

[00:12:41] Gordon Tsui: Yes, it depends on case by case. Our team, we like to say that we all come from founder backgrounds, so we understand what it’s like to be a founder. We say this, and it isn’t always taken too seriously. But we always want to have an open door. We always want to be hustle-free. I think the founders that have realized how much we mean are the ones who like to call me at 1:00 AM and then I’m there.

[00:13:02] Gordon Tsui: But ultimately, I think it depends on what they have their need for and us just trying our best to find it. Whether find them customers or access, I guess manufacturing products, et cetera, advisors, whatever we can offer. I think it’s a very general answer, but it takes a lot to back that word.

[00:13:18] Bryan Pham: Yes, anything. I know what you mean. Just being there, helping them out, just even having a conversation helps too. The founder of life is brutal. There are so many ups and downs and so many cycles, so many unforeseen things. I think the consensus on the Asian Hustle podcast is that being a founder, there are more bad days and good days.

[00:13:36] Bryan Pham: But you just have to let your good days marinate a bit, so you feel better about the next. 

[00:13:40] Gordon Tsui: Right exactly. I agree. 

[00:13:42] Bryan Pham: Yes, and I want to hear about how you select companies to invest in. I think that’s the part where people in Asian Network are very interested.

[00:13:50] Bryan Pham: They understand that there are investors they’re pitching to investors. But as investors, what things do you typically look for inside investments that make sense? 

[00:13:59] Gordon Tsui: Okay. Yes, so I want to speak in two different ways like we’re a couple of different hats. One, I have a VC firm fund that we invested in at an earlier stage, right? They are small non-lead checks. 

[00:14:08] Gordon Tsui: I have a syndicate where we bring together angel investors that are business leaders and family offices to invest in opportunities that may not be VC tech-related. And then, I’m also an Angel investor. The advice I would give entrepreneurs is number one, first, know your audience.

[00:14:22] Gordon Tsui: Okay. So let’s say it’s a hardware startup, which my VC fund does not invest in. We specifically do not invest in hardware. We only invest in digital technologies. Know your audience because if you’re not in line with your thesis, it’s just a pass, wasting your time. On the other hand, Angel investors have more of an emotional aspect.

[00:14:40] Gordon Tsui: I make Angel investments in things that I am passionate about. I may not be expecting outside returns for things I may be more stable as you mentioned, like my real estate investments. So when people etc me in real estate, I’m asking, how do I not lose my principal versus in an early-stage startup?

[00:14:54] Gordon Tsui: I’m like, oh, I don’t care about my principal. How am I going to get a hundred X? And then the syndicate side is, to be honest, a lot of that stuff is like, how well you can connect to the value and add the syndicate members. So it depends on, again, the focus. Knowing your audience will be the best start.

[00:15:08] Bryan Pham: think.

[00:15:08] Bryan Pham: Yes, that’s good advice, right? Knowing your audience and understanding that there are a lot of VC funds out there, I would say. And like each VC fund has a focus that can offer help. But then many founders, especially first-time and early-stage founders, tend to grab the first amount of money that comes in their direction.

[00:15:27] Bryan Pham: How do you feel about this? What do you think about the weight of money? And I like to ask this question because I feel like not all investment dollars are the same. Sometimes you want to get fewer dollars for investors that can open more gates for you, more doors to you, that can be there along the process. But I want to hear your take on this. It can give you as hot of a take as you want because I’m very curious. 

[00:15:47] Gordon Tsui: Okay. Yes, are we talking about the first dollars they ever get?

[00:15:52] Bryan Pham: Just as a first-time founder, you realize that you’re going out and pitching ideas. Let’s say you get rejected ten times, and this one investor where you’re iffy about say, hey, I like your idea.

[00:16:02] Bryan Pham: Let me put in 200 K. We’re not sure about that money and who and about that person’s character. I just want to frame them in a situation like that. What would you do? What advice would you give to this founder? 

[00:16:12] Gordon Tsui: Oh, man. Okay. I think as broad, like overall if you’re just starting, I would recommend taking the money in general.

[00:16:20] Gordon Tsui: Okay. But there are things that you should worry about, right? Like you don’t want an investor. That’s just going to give you a small or even a significant amount and a hard time all the time. I want updates every month. I want blah, blah, blah.

[00:16:31] Gordon Tsui: Like they would call you, my money, give it back. And I just, lawsuits, everything. Before taking money from anyone, I would probably set the tone of expectation of just discussing with them. Hey, what are you expecting when it comes to updates and your returns and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?

[00:16:44] Gordon Tsui: Without killing the deal, you don’t want to scare them off. Some investors bring a lot more value than just raw dollars. But I think you only consider that if you’re discussing different types of valuations, right? If this guy is going to give you a lot of money and make your company worth big, versus this guy giving you a little money but wants to be working very cheap, that’s an entirely different category.

[00:17:06] Gordon Tsui: Not to shoot me in the foot, but I don’t know; as a founder, you hope for the best that your investment will bring value. But you need to depend on yourself and your team so that you can drive the business forward with the capital you’re asking for everything. What they give as value is always just a bonus isn’t it?

[00:17:21] Gordon Tsui: Do not see it as a requirement. Don’t see it as something you must receive, that you’re owed, right? There’s already a big bet for someone to just give you money to believe in you. 

[00:17:30] Bryan Pham: Yes. That’s a really good perspective. And being the first founder myself and raising money, that was the situation where I felt like I didn’t know what to do. So to my surprise, when I talk to more people as I go out there, I’m a network with more new founders. A lot of people are in very similar situations. There is enough material out there that tells you like a black-and-white answer. What to do? Because honestly, it’s not. It’s almost like an art. 

[00:17:54] Gordon Tsui: No, it’s definitely like an art. Yes, I agree. 

[00:17:56] Bryan Pham: Yes, for sure. I do. Let’s switch over to talk about your real estate investments. That’s crazy, right? Whenever I look at your IG story, I see that you’re building something. You’re looking at something, you’re dropping around in your awesome truck.

[00:18:09] Bryan Pham: How did you get yourself involved in real estate and how has the real estate philosophy differed from your startup philosophy? 

[00:18:17] Gordon Tsui: Yes, okay. I don’t know if my portfolio construction is the best. So like people who are listening, don’t take my advice, but because I invest in startups, I do startups. I invest in a lot of high-risk alternative assets. Real estate is a way of countering and being on the other side of the spectrum, more of preserving capital, right? To put simply, investing in startups is like wealth creation.

[00:18:40] Gordon Tsui: You’re hoping one becomes a million and it moves alpha for you, right? While real estate investing, although there are a lot of projects out there that give you fantastic returns comparable to VC from a fund perspective, it’s generally wealth preservation. Meaning by part, my capital here, it’s not going to disappear. The land is always going to be there, right? This is why real estate makes the most millionaires. But I would think that tech makes probably the most significant billions. So that’s the way I see it. So real estate for me, a lot of the big projects you see on my social media is me more of an investor where I invest and support projects.

[00:19:14] Gordon Tsui: I also have a single family. I wanted to do Airbnbs, a great cap on your property, so I bought the truck. During COVID Josh or tree for people familiar with LA was a huge hot market, like they were booked out a hundred percent of the time. So I bought a place, got a truck, and drove out there all the time. 

[00:19:31] Gordon Tsui: I have to get my hands dirty and put material in the back. But we ended up selling that property after owning it for four days. It’s crazy. But yes, someone came in with an offer. I couldn’t refuse, I guess.

[00:19:42] Bryan Pham: That’s insane. That is the power of real estate, and it greets you. It will be weird to say this, but I always feel like real estate is a better way to store your money. It’s like a better bank. You get better returns. 

[00:19:53] Gordon Tsui: Exactly. Where you can loan your money too. Your home can lend you money. 

[00:19:57] Bryan Pham: Yes, for sure. With startups, it is a higher risk and reward mentality. I think being able to like diverse portfolios is the way to go in the future. So, Gordon, I’m curious, where do you see yourself in five years, ten years from now?

[00:20:13] Bryan Pham: What is the complete version of Gordon that you want to become?

[00:20:17] Gordon Tsui: I hope it’s not complete yet. To be honest, I believe that, like my whole life, in the perfect world, I could keep growing myself and optimizing and becoming stronger at what I do. You didn’t get to an age where it becomes more challenging. Weirdly, you ask that to me now because  I do think in the past three years, especially COVID, it’s created a workaholic nature that I didn’t have before.

[00:20:35] Gordon Tsui: So now when you ask me five, ten years later, all I can think about is like a career, right? How big can I do the things I do? How much impact can I make? It’s hard to describe it, but I would probably want to be in a place where I can be successful. One thing I always wanted to do was to successfully incubate companies and ideas, aside from being a founder.

[00:20:59] Gordon Tsui: Today, I learned the experience of a founder, and now I’m investing in founders. I believe I have some pattern recognition and let’s say that can continue going well. Can I create businesses with founders and incubate and grow multiple ones?

[00:21:10] Gordon Tsui: Because there’s only one version of me at the end of the day. But you could have many different projects that you’ve grown, and the impact is exponentially more significant. I don’t want to be limited to my own. My own physical working body and soul. That answers the question of five to 10 years. Yes.

[00:21:25] Bryan Pham: It’s an excellent perspective that you have too. Thank you for sharing that. So I guess as we’re nearing the end of the podcast. It is an excellent time to ask that continued question of what I just asked; as you mentioned that you want to make sure that you’re incubating founders and new ideas and supporting them, how do you feel about the features of AAPI founders in the tech space? 

[00:21:46] Gordon Tsui: I think it’s a great time to be a founder in general.

[00:21:49] Gordon Tsui: As you mentioned, never been cheaper to start, never more options, never more opportunities. As an Asian founder, I think it’s at least compared to the past and also one of the better times to do it because we’re at a point where I believe agents are getting better and better at positioning themselves to have a seat at the table.

[00:22:07] Gordon Tsui: Going way back to the earlier conversation, why I started my syndicate was because when I started investing in the US and being here at a more extended period of periods, because of Covid, I realized I couldn’t get access to a lot of these deals that I wanted to invest in. 

[00:22:21] Gordon Tsui: And then, whatever circles that they were not Asian, I did feel that it was limiting for me, a lot of people I grew up with from Asia who is sophisticated investors, who have the capital deployed. But it’s rapidly changing, especially during Covid.

[00:22:33] Gordon Tsui: Obviously, we’ve seen many things come up. That triggered this. I do think it’s great to be an Asian founder. There are a lot of support systems for Asian founders, specifically, that did not exist ten years ago in the US. 

[00:22:44] Bryan Pham: A shout-out few I’ll top of my head, shout to he been fun, gold house.

[00:22:48] Bryan Pham: You guys are killing it. 

[00:22:49] Gordon Tsui: You guys, it’s in your name. 

[00:22:51] Bryan Pham: We were trying to form the foundation to support the future founders in the world. Because you’re right, dude. I think for us growing up and even starting this couple of years back, there weren’t a lot of communities like this to support the ecosystem, but now we do and return in the right direction, so I’m happy. 

[00:23:08] Gordon Tsui: No, for sure. I do. 

[00:23:09] Bryan Pham: Definitely, so Gordon, how can our listeners find out more about you and reach out to you online? 

[00:23:14] Gordon Tsui: Yes, I think you guys, you provide handles, right? So I think LinkedIn is probably the best way. I do check my LinkedIn inbox for anything professional, and then maybe email. Yes, perhaps we go set up an email or provide an email. 

[00:23:25] Gordon Tsui: Maybe just LinkedIn, Gordon Tsui. There’s not a lot of me out there. So I love that name, pretty.

[00:23:31] Bryan Pham: Awesome. We will include all that in the show notes. Gordon, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

[00:23:36] Gordon Tsui: Thank you so much, Brian, for having me. 

[00:23:38] Gordon Tsui: Of course.